Wednesday, December 31, 2008

Another Top Story: Idiot Joe Put in His Place

The real reaming starts at about minute 6; but take the time to watch the whole thing, it is well worth it.

h/t to Huff Po


Judith said...

As usual, I can't watch the video. I never have understood why I can't watch them, however, I heard at dinner last night about this exchange. Seems Joe finally got put in his place. Like to see more 'guests' do the same to those who think they are so smart.

Anjha said...

Judith do you have all of the newest updates to Flash and WMP and all that jazz?

Let me know if you want help with those downloads.

CG said...

Sorry, but while Brzezinski has a point, so did Joe. Israel has taken rocket fire from Gaza every single fucking day for years and no one in the international community bats an eye. Finally, someone is killed and Israel decides to do something about it. Proportional response is bullshit. It doesn't do anything. I agree that the US has to be engaged and try to prevent this stuff from happening, but it has happened and Israel can't just lob a few rockets and call it even. Hamas' rockets are now going nearly 30 miles into Israel when before it was only about 5 miles. Wait until they start firing on Tel Aviv? I don't think so. Hamas is committed to Israel's destruction. I don't know what the answer is, but dropping a bomb or two and calling it a day because that would be "proportional" is not it.

Seven of Six said...

I don't know what the answer is, but dropping a bomb or two and calling it a day because that would be "proportional" is not it.

I know it's more personal for you CG so please try and understand my answer is from an ex-soldier's point of view.

When the first rockets were lobbed from Hamas, diplomatic talks should have started immediately.

The international community has been sitting on their hands on this one. Israel/Hamas as well.

I find it a little ironic that it got this far without any discussions or Israeli uproar at the UN.
I feel it has to do with the larger Iranian issue at hand. Lame duck Sec. of State Condi Rice has never done her job in these important diplomatic relations.
bu$h/cheney don't care if Israel goes after Hamas in Gaza, it will fulfill one of there bigger dreams the problems with Iran.

I just think it's a dirty way of handling the whole issue.

All I know is that a cease fire is in order or a lot more innocent people will die.

Hamas' rockets are now going nearly 30 miles into Israel when before it was only about 5 miles. Wait until they start firing on Tel Aviv? I don't think so.

Ok, so do we equate that with Israel's nuclear capability? Talk about "proportional"! Oh wait, they are an undeclared nuclear state. ;)

mainsailset said...

Since one of the main tenants of an ideological war is to stand firm that there is only one god and he is mine not yours; and that premise has been reinforced with the lifeblood given or taken by a loved one of every family from both sides; for generations...I'll ask another question.

And it has to do with missed opportunities and obligations. There's a whole world out there in need of immediate help, but on any given month, the conflict machine of Israel burps, CNN moves in its anchors, tvs turn on and somehow all the other mayhem of our world falls back into a nether world as once again Israel steps up to the screen.

I cannot bear to see the screaming mothers rock their broken children in the streets...either in Gaza or Iraq or Somalia or the hundred other places where people are dying this hour. But I also find it unacceptable that Israel and the Palestinians will be the only story of pain today.

CG said...

7 of 6, I agree with you. The US and everyone else has to be more engaged. Bush ignored the situation for years, which just made things worse. At the same time, while progress has been made with Abbas, there's no reasoning with Hamas. I feel terrible for the Palestinians in Gaza--really I do. They're stuck with Hamas (yeah, they elected them, but still...) and there's not much your average Palestinian who's just trying to make a living and protect their family can do. I don't think things are going to get much better until Hamas is out of power. Maybe Israel can make peace with the West Bank, the people in Gaza can see what peace can look like, and they can go from there. You know, the sad thing is that while this whole dispute is about land, religion comes into it and makes it this whole Muslim/Jewish thing. The reality is that Muslims and Jews have a LOT in common--much more so than Christians and Jews. Muslims and Jews generally get along with no problems here in the US, but the Palestinian-Israeli thing taints it all.

Anjha said...

Personally I think that it would be rather presumptious of me to think that I have any answers that might solve a conflict that is 50 years old (two thousand?).

I do not think that either side is "right." There really is not a right side and a wrong side in matters such as this. Which is why I can only take the "side" that I think is the most moral. Cease fire is the only thing that I can agree with. Since I cannot get a cease fire, the next best thing is "proportional response."

I get it. There must be some over-flexing of a country's muscles now and again or there would never be the excuse of owning a bunch of weaponry as being a "deterant."

I do not know if owning all of these weapons really acts as a detourant (sp?) - but it seems to be the best excuse that leaders like ours have for spending money on weapons that could be spent on food.

They always tell us that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is about "land." That is what they tell us...but I think that the real truth is that the dispute is about living in Peace.

I think that this is all that anyone wants; the security to send your children off to school and not have to worry about them being bombed or shot on the way, or while there. Isn't this what everyone wants?

One of the things that we forget when we talk about some of this is that a) we insisted upon and encouraged the 'elections' that allowed Hamas to come to power and b) Hamas was able to come to power because they had provided the Palestinian people with some semblance of security. Hamas had provided medical care, food and fought back against "mighty" Israel.

I do not think that the hatred towards Israel by Iran and Hamas and any other mid-east Arab or Persian country that talks crap about Israel...I don't think that this hatred is really as much about Israel as it is about the history of the "white men" and the "Christians" and the "missionaries" who have went into their lands and their worlds and forced them into religions and cultures that they do not want. I think that Israel serves as a grand excuse for these countries to have some kind of "enemy" to focus their angry energies towards.

I know that we cannot solve it. I certainly do not have the answers.

The only thing that I can do is to lobby my government to support talks. I can lobby to support immediate talks and that is what I want and what I think is needed. I just want people to live in Peace.

What would happen to Hamas if their efforts were treated as a joke? Rather than lob bombs back at them, what if the leaders in Isreal laughed at them? And then, the Israeli government went into Palenstine and provided hospitals and work and food and security? What if Israel marganilized Hamas and then provided the Palestinian people with the services that Hamas does? Wouldn't this be a less expensive way (in LIVES and treasure) to handle this?

CG said...

I was listening to the Diane Rehm show on NPR this morning and was reminded that Sunni Muslims in other countries (Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon) do NOT like Hamas. They'd love to see Hamas out of power and Egypt especially is royally pissed at Hamas for starting up rocket fire again after the truce. So pressure from those countries is a start, though the general populations are simply protesting Israel and wanting their gov'ts to help the Palestinians--understandable. Egypt does not want Gaza to be its problem--it already is to some extent, but it doesn't want it to be more of a problem.

I think there will be a cease-fire soon. It would be incredibly stupid for Israel to send ground forces in--there's no way to win PR-wise because it's so densely populated that the civilian casualties will be much worse than they are now. I haven't been following the election stuff in Israel, so I'm not sure what's going on with that. Hopefully this situation won't cause a Bush-type war-monger to be elected.

I don't have any solutions either. I agree that neither side is completely right or completely wrong and there's really no fair solution to the land issue. It was fucked up right from the beginning and I totally understand the Palestinian side. I could even argue the case that Israel should not exist, but it's so important to Jews (and by that I mean having a secure place that they control, not the religious aspect, though that is important to some) and it's such a tiny area it seems like it shouldn't be a big deal to work something out. But people on both sides are going to have to live with some wrongs that aren't righted in order to get peace. I think that's the bottom line.

Judith said...

Anjha, I am so computer illiterate. I don't think I have either program, which just may explain why I can't run videos. Oh, and by-the-way, I am in that 20% who still have land line service, which may also be a factor. If you have time, please do send me the downloads or the site where I can download, and I will see if that is the answer.

Judith said...

CG and Anjha, I am not a Middle East expert, but I do agree with both of you. Both sides have to take responsibility for the continued hatred between them. What in the world has either side gained over all these many years but pain.

CG said...

Ugh, I can't believe Israel sent in ground troops. There are going to be so many civilian casualties and they'll just be mired there. It's going to be a disaster. I'm not sure what think they can accomplish--pick off individual Hamas fighters one by one?? It's not like they're going to chase Hamas off somewhere--there's nowhere to go. How will they know when they're "done" with the Gaza invasion? I don't get this at all. *sigh*

Seven of Six said...

Ugh, I can't believe Israel sent in ground troops.

Yeah, what an ugly situation... I can't believe Israel thinks this will lead to some sort of victory. It never will.
This will just raise the ire of the whole Islamic community... I'm afraid it does get back to the "proportional" gamut! Freakin' dangerous is what it is!

Seven of Six said...

"Other countries' wars are much more important - and warrant much more televised coverage - than our own." - Atrios

Spot on Atrios!